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#506483 - 02-05-10 07:32 PM Re: Obama's war on the economy * [Re: Genghis]
Gag Reflex
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Registered: 11-30-01
Posts: 12903
Loc: New York
Genghis: "You don't trust government to manage payments for health care but you trust government with nuclear bombs. "

Exactly.

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#506486 - 02-05-10 07:38 PM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: Gag Reflex]
Genghis
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Registered: 09-18-04
Posts: 2101
Gag Reflex

I know, I'm always precise.

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#506514 - 02-05-10 10:49 PM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: Gag Reflex]
loosecannon
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Registered: 10-30-05
Posts: 32056
Originally Posted By: Gag Reflex
Genghis: "You don't trust government to manage payments for health care but you trust government with nuclear bombs. "

Exactly.


Now THAT is the definition of insane! It's like not trusting your kids with matches but giving them guns instead!
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#506537 - 02-06-10 06:08 AM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: Gag Reflex]
Zulif Bystander
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Registered: 03-26-02
Posts: 46409
Says it all:



The red shows job losses during the BA, the blue the decelerating job losses during the Obama Administration.
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#506544 - 02-06-10 08:00 AM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: Zulif Bystander]
Gag Reflex
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Registered: 11-30-01
Posts: 12903
Loc: New York
The "decelerating" job losses, cb!!!!

In other words, jobs are being lost every month but the hemorrhaging is at a lower rate.

If this "Says it all," then what it says is that you (and your mouthpiece TPM) will lie with statistics in service of your deity, Obama.

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#506561 - 02-06-10 10:02 AM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: Gag Reflex]
Genghis
Member


Registered: 09-18-04
Posts: 2101
Why is Obama following the advice of Ronald Reagan and GW Bush?

President Bush said today that there was a benefit to the government's fast-dwindling surplus, declaring that it will create "a fiscal straitjacket for Congress." He said that was "incredibly positive news" because it would halt the growth of the federal government.

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2010...y-positive-news

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#506623 - 02-06-10 12:40 PM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: Genghis]
Catz
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Registered: 09-19-04
Posts: 46541
Loc: New Port Richey, Florida
It'll surely halt the growth of librul government.
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#506628 - 02-06-10 12:43 PM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: Catz]
tlbshow2007
Prep Cook


Registered: 11-29-06
Posts: 8112
obama will be removed from office for high crimes against america
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#506762 - 02-07-10 06:48 AM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: tlbshow2007]
KLATTU
Master Chef


Registered: 09-07-07
Posts: 9269
Loc: SF, CA
WOW - Rasmussen has some interesting results.

Obama's strongly approve/disapprove index is back up iin double digits after going down to 4 after the sotu.

Also,Americans overwhelmingly reject Keynesian economics.

OF course, public sector spending does not strengthen the economy.
Taking 100 dollars from Peter to give a job to Paul is not a productive formula.
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#506793 - 02-07-10 10:28 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: KLATTU]
Snkls
Member


Registered: 09-27-02
Posts: 2329
Am very curious as to whether any of you caught these two power houses on MTP.

The questions posed by Gregory revolved around:

The Deficit; how to decrease, tax increase or not
Entitlements; cutting spending
Mortgages; upside down and another possible round of foreclosures
Wall Street; bonuses, regulatory measures that allow for liquidation not bail outs

It was very, very interesting.
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#506794 - 02-07-10 10:33 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Snkls]
Genghis
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Registered: 09-18-04
Posts: 2101
Proud Liberal

"Of course, public sector spending does not strengthen the economy."

I guess you didn't notice how the US economy improved during WWII.

How many customers would WalMart have if the government had not spent the money to build highways?

Snkls

"The questions posed by Gregory revolved around:"

The idiot can't even consider the defense budget?

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#506804 - 02-07-10 10:53 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Genghis]
Snkls
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Registered: 09-27-02
Posts: 2329
Well Genghis, personally, I do not believe that I would be in a position to critize these guys...most of us would not. I do believe they (Paulson/Greenspan) have and do consider the points you bring up before they make an analysis.
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#506812 - 02-07-10 10:58 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Snkls]
Genghis
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Registered: 09-18-04
Posts: 2101
Snkls

Greenspan is an idiot! Read, "The Ayn Rand Cult". The economy would have done better if they had put a potted plant in charge of the Fed instead of Greenspan.

The US spends more on defense than the rest of the world combined. It is asinine to ignore the elephant in the room and talk of cutting Medicare and Social Security and allow defense spending to increase.

The GOP is talking about privatizing SS and eliminating Medicare while maintaining an ever increasing military budget.

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#506815 - 02-07-10 10:59 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Gag Reflex]
Gore1FL
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Registered: 02-22-02
Posts: 28739
Originally Posted By: Gag Reflex
The "decelerating" job losses, cb!!!!

In other words, jobs are being lost every month but the hemorrhaging is at a lower rate.



Evidently, Gaggy would prefer to be in an unemployment free fall rather than seeing it level out. Is that about right, Twitchy?
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#506817 - 02-07-10 11:00 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Snkls]
Snkls
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Registered: 09-27-02
Posts: 2329
For anyone that is interested in viewing the actual interview thereby making up their own minds as to what was said; as sometimes Greenspan speaks in his "own language", MTP will have the video up on their website by 12 noon ET.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3898804/ns/meet_the_press
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#506820 - 02-07-10 11:03 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Gore1FL]
Zulif Bystander
Member


Registered: 03-26-02
Posts: 46409
Originally Posted By: Gore1FL
Originally Posted By: Gag Reflex
The "decelerating" job losses, cb!!!!

In other words, jobs are being lost every month but the hemorrhaging is at a lower rate.



Evidently, Gaggy would prefer to be in an unemployment free fall rather than seeing it level out. Is that about right, Twitchy?


I couldn't think of any response since his post beggared reason in favor of empty bombast. But you managed, Gore. By George, you did it!
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#506821 - 02-07-10 11:04 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Snkls]
Genghis
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Registered: 09-18-04
Posts: 2101
Snkls

Greenspan's record speaks for itself. Volker told Greenspan the economy was doing fine and at most might need a little tweak. Greenspan raised interest rates half a point and caused the markets to crash. Then he lowered interest rates below where they were when he took office.

The man is a complete idiot!

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#506826 - 02-07-10 11:14 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Genghis]
Snkls
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Registered: 09-27-02
Posts: 2329
Okay, Genghis...I suppose then that ALL the Presidents that continued to re-appoint him must be idiots as well???
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#506833 - 02-07-10 11:26 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Snkls]
Genghis
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Registered: 09-18-04
Posts: 2101
Snkls

Yes!

Look at Greenspan's track record. He raised interest rates when he should have lowered them and lowered rates when he should have raised them.

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#506837 - 02-07-10 11:29 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Snkls]
Snkls
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Registered: 09-27-02
Posts: 2329
I believe the state of our economy started with the dot com bust (over inflated/value of stocks in an industry that at the time most were novices in the area of IT)afterwards "creative financing" moved monies around to give the "appearance of a surplus"...then 9.11 occurred which I think based on many comments that many people have no idea how adversely it affected our economy and actually did not stop; a very REAL goal of the terrorists, all this while the mortgage/lending practices of Fannie/Freddie as dictated by the likes of Frank and Dodd; everybody, no matter their ability to afford should have the opportunity to own their own home...so make it clear to the banks they should lend without proof of income...ludicrous. The banks/mortgage holders, unscrupulous or not, realized the defaults were going to become staggering so package them up and sell off the toxic ones with a few of value so as to make it look kosher and let someone else take the hits.

Construction/Car Manufacturing is just about all we have left and when they go down the tubes what else is there?

My take...simplified I realize but major reasons covered...the rest can probably all be said to be results of the former.
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#506840 - 02-07-10 11:31 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Genghis]
Catz
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Registered: 09-19-04
Posts: 46541
Loc: New Port Richey, Florida
Dayum, Genghis should run the Fed.
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#506847 - 02-07-10 11:34 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Snkls]
Genghis
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Registered: 09-18-04
Posts: 2101
Snkls

Hypothetical situation: You are Fed chairman and you see an inflationary bubble in the stock market. What action do you take? Lower interest rates?

Same scenario with housing prices? Oil prices?

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#506849 - 02-07-10 11:37 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Catz]
Snkls
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Registered: 09-27-02
Posts: 2329
well catz 20/20 is always just that.

I would have liked Gregory to have asked when the subject was the nation's debt, how long before China decides to call in the debt or how long before they ask for it be secured and with what or how?
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#506853 - 02-07-10 11:39 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Snkls]
Snkls
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Registered: 09-27-02
Posts: 2329
Genghis...do not these people serve at the "pleasure" of the President?
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#506856 - 02-07-10 11:42 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Snkls]
Genghis
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Registered: 09-18-04
Posts: 2101
Snkls

You dodged the question? Why? Because a small child would have raised interest rates to deflate the inflationary bubble in stock prices. And yet Greenspan lowered interest rates anytime the market took the slightest drop.

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#506859 - 02-07-10 11:43 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Genghis]
Snkls
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Registered: 09-27-02
Posts: 2329
Did not dodge...chose not to answer...it is all hindsight
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#506862 - 02-07-10 11:47 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Snkls]
Genghis
Member


Registered: 09-18-04
Posts: 2101
Snkls

It is not hindsight when the Fed routinely raises interest rates to stop inflationary pressures in the money supply.

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#506866 - 02-07-10 11:51 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Genghis]
Snkls
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Registered: 09-27-02
Posts: 2329
Have it your way Genghis...you were speaking, as I understood it, of Greenspan's tenure, asking about what WAS done and what might have been done is hindsight...besides do you take into consideration the foresight that might have been considered as to what would have happened to the housing market and the political pressure to keep the money flowing to those that did not even have an income???? Make the money available at a lower rate...the call of THAT day.
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#506869 - 02-07-10 11:55 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Snkls]
Snkls
Member


Registered: 09-27-02
Posts: 2329
The Paulson video clip is up along with some of Greenspan's stuff...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3898804/ns/meet_the_press
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#506870 - 02-07-10 11:57 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Snkls]
Genghis
Member


Registered: 09-18-04
Posts: 2101
Snkls

Yes, Greenspan's tenure, he is an idiot based on his track record.

The Fed's job is to manage the economy by adjusting the money supply. When you see an inflationary bubble you raise interest rates.

"Make money available at a lower rate..the call of THAT day?"

Maintain the expanding bubble instead of letting a little air out so it doesn't burst?

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#506876 - 02-07-10 12:06 PM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Genghis]
Snkls
Member


Registered: 09-27-02
Posts: 2329
I get your point Genghis...however I also believe he, Greenspan balanced that as long as it could be balanced...imho it was "nursed" as long as it could be...as a matter of fact how long do you think you can "nurse" something that was so outta whack, as in the unsecured mortgage debt???
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#506878 - 02-07-10 12:10 PM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Snkls]
Snkls
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Registered: 09-27-02
Posts: 2329
Have to say goodbye for now ... we are having quite a housefull for the Game so must finish food preperations...will be happy to continue discussion at a later date or not. Have a good one.

GO Indiana gotta love Manning
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#506879 - 02-07-10 12:10 PM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Snkls]
Genghis
Member


Registered: 09-18-04
Posts: 2101
Snkls

If Greenspan had raised interest rates the housing bubble would never gotten big enough to burst.

Greenspan nursed the bubble allowing it to grow to the point of explosion.

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#506991 - 02-08-10 09:38 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Genghis]
Phebe
Southern Cook


Registered: 08-06-03
Posts: 26758
Loc: Maryland
Originally Posted By: Genghis
Snkls

Hypothetical situation: You are Fed chairman and you see an inflationary bubble in the stock market. What action do you take? Lower interest rates?

Same scenario with housing prices? Oil prices?



They do nothing because if they take away the punch bowl, they will certainly be blamed for the crash. This has been understood by Fed chiefs since 1928 when the Fed DID take away the punch bowl and did get blamed for the crash.


No one has ever done it since and I don't think anyone will.

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#506992 - 02-08-10 09:41 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Genghis]
Phebe
Southern Cook


Registered: 08-06-03
Posts: 26758
Loc: Maryland
Originally Posted By: Genghis

Maintain the expanding bubble instead of letting a little air out so it doesn't burst?



Letting a little air out --- with a pin?

Genghis, if they puncture the balloon, it goes BLOOIE!

Then they've caused the crash. No one likes them anymore.

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#506997 - 02-08-10 09:46 AM Re: Chairman Greenspan, Secretary Paulson on MTP [Re: Phebe]
Phebe
Southern Cook


Registered: 08-06-03
Posts: 26758
Loc: Maryland
The problem originated with Frank and Dodd, the terrible PC "give all blacks mortgages no matter what" crew. They did indeed require this complete sacrifice of all rational lending principles of banks, as Uncle Buck points out.

After that, it was the securitizing of these bad debts and mixing them in with all mortgages indissolubly and then the rating agencies rating them triple A ------- and now because of all this, Moody is threatening to remove the triple A rating of the United States of America, as of last week.

And that is all the fault of the Democratic Party, via Frank and Dodd, who have collapsed the world financial system pretty much by them little selves.


It has little to do with the unlucky Fed chairmen.

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#507145 - 02-08-10 03:32 PM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: loosecannon]
Anonymous Unregistered



I usually don't pay much notice to a piddly 300 or 400 point Dow move because I am not a short term trader. Let alone a 100 point swing.

Today has the possibility of being significant, because it looks likely that the index will finish under 10,000 for the first time after the run-up. Last Friday nearly produced it, but short sellers with Friday jitters bought shares to reduce their positions and lock in big profit since the slide began.

It's an indication that both bulls and bears do no want to be caught holding the bag over the weekend in this market environment. Nobody has real confidence in the ability to plot the future. Nobody. Risk of getting burnt badly has infected everyone. Obama's newbie, leftish squirreliness has everyone on edge.

The 10,000 mark is important psychologically to the casual investor. If there is a perception that the future is unstable, things could get ugly. Even if they don't sell their shares, they might cut back on other marginal purchases, possibly bringing on the double dip that the markets are hinting about.

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#507150 - 02-08-10 03:35 PM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: ]
Phebe
Southern Cook


Registered: 08-06-03
Posts: 26758
Loc: Maryland
Suggestion: if you are interested in politics and you "usually don't pay much notice to a piddly 300 or 400 point Dow move" -------


Start.

That's important. Has ramifications.

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#507153 - 02-08-10 03:38 PM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: Phebe]
Phebe
Southern Cook


Registered: 08-06-03
Posts: 26758
Loc: Maryland
Doesn't look like any big move today, however.

Still hovering right around 10,000.

Nerves about Europe, the PIGS defaulting maybe (Portugal, Ireland/Italy/Iceland, Greece, and Spain), but it is not yet a full-blown financial system crisis.

People are worried but haven't yet marked any disaster dates on their calendars.

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#507155 - 02-08-10 03:40 PM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: Phebe]
Anonymous Unregistered



My hair doesn't catch on fire over a few percentage points for any given day. A longer trend, sure. Too often it just is a flaky reaction by pants-wetters.

Voters are already on notice that the economy is sickly. But most accept wiggles in the charts. It's only when the perception grows that Obama's assurances are detached from the reality they see that they start disbelieving him. The 10,000 is way more important than the daily delta.

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#507159 - 02-08-10 03:44 PM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: ]
Phebe
Southern Cook


Registered: 08-06-03
Posts: 26758
Loc: Maryland
Remember when it went below 7000 last year? That was very, very scary.
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#507161 - 02-08-10 03:45 PM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: ]
Anonymous Unregistered



BTW, going below 10,000 will only take a dozen Dow points. If it stays there for any time at all, there will be a dampening effect. If there is any perception that the economy itself has stalled, look out. The Dow will deflate rapidly and then additional nastiness will ensue.

Forced to predict, I would say that that the economy is still not headed to hell, but will remain in limbo/malaise. That alone will be enough to have serious political blowback.

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#507172 - 02-08-10 04:00 PM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: ]
Anonymous Unregistered



Well, there was no short-covering rally today. Everyone, bulls and bears, seems to be indicating that the bottom hasn't yet quite arrived. If any bailing out was done in the last few minutes, it was those who were heretofore optimistic about the future.
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#507181 - 02-08-10 04:11 PM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: ]
Phebe
Southern Cook


Registered: 08-06-03
Posts: 26758
Loc: Maryland
The Dow closed down at 9908, 103 off. Not great, nearly a hundred off the 10,000. Lost 50 points or more between 3:30 and 4, so indeed, no shorts were covered.

I noted with interest this morning that a commentator said that a lot of analysts "weren't buying" last Friday's unemployment figures. I said this morning I thought the government is frankly lying about those figures. As others besides me are pointing out, how do you get so many jobs newly lost ---- and yet unemployment goes DOWN?

Improbable.

They'll present "revised figures" two months from now and unemployment will have been up to 10.7, I bet.

There's another jobs report due this Friday; the market may well be waiting for that.

And for any other shoes falling off in Europe, of course.

There was a bad January. For a hundred years and more, that has consistently meant a whole bad year on the Stock Exchange.

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#507214 - 02-08-10 08:05 PM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: Phebe]
Anonymous Unregistered



I almost hate posting to a thread with this title because it essentially states that politics is driving economic realities rather than the other way around. At the moment, economic realities are in the driver's seat, and politicians aren't even in the front seat. All they are doing is creating uncertainty.

But let me say this to those political junkies who still think that this is 2002 or 1994: after the Dow falling below 10,000, voters will attribute this economy to Barack Hussein Obama, and not George Walker Bush. He owns it. He's responsible for it. He has claimed credit for what resembles a recovery on many occasions, and it will be impossible to say convincingly, "wait a minute, I was premature."

Good luck with your new toy.

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#507216 - 02-08-10 09:07 PM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: ]
loosecannon
Member


Registered: 10-30-05
Posts: 32056
I almost hate posting to a thread with this title because it essentially states that politics is driving economic realities rather than the other way around. At the moment, economic realities are in the driver's seat, and politicians aren't even in the front seat. All they are doing is creating uncertainty.

Politics has driven econ realities since the nation's founding. It's the economy stupid! From printing the money to collecting and redistributing taxes to granting charters to corps and administering civil and criminal order thru the courts the Government is the caretaker of the economy even moreso than they are of our defense.

And rightfully so.

What is news today is that after a prolonged period of fiscal mismanagement that should have humiliated politicians in both parties the Obama admin has simply thrown reason out the window and launched a new budget, 40% of which is floated on new debt, and at a moment when were already at the limit of solvency.

It's a fully political event and a political board.
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#507217 - 02-08-10 09:11 PM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: ]
Hill Rez
Member


Registered: 09-21-04
Posts: 4411
Originally Posted By: Rocker Q. Fuhrman
My hair doesn't catch on fire over a few percentage points for any given day. A longer trend, sure. Too often it just is a flaky reaction by pants-wetters.


Huh. Because a few years ago you were piddling your panties over the Dow numbers.

#104811 - 10-04-2006 06:26 PM
Originally Posted By: Rocker Q. Fuhrman
DOW pops up to 11,850 - adds another 120 points.


http://www.capitolgrilling.com/forums/ub...true#Post104811

#104777 - 09-27-2006 08:19 AM Re: It's the Economy stupid
Originally Posted By: Rocker Q. Fuhrman
Dow 22 points below all time closing high.


How'd this work out?

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#507218 - 02-08-10 09:11 PM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: Phebe]
loosecannon
Member


Registered: 10-30-05
Posts: 32056
Originally Posted By: Phebe
The problem originated with Frank and Dodd, the terrible PC "give all blacks mortgages no matter what" crew. They did indeed require this complete sacrifice of all rational lending principles of banks, as Uncle Buck points out.

After that, it was the securitizing of these bad debts and mixing them in with all mortgages indissolubly and then the rating agencies rating them triple A ------- and now because of all this, Moody is threatening to remove the triple A rating of the United States of America, as of last week.

And that is all the fault of the Democratic Party, via Frank and Dodd, who have collapsed the world financial system pretty much by them little selves.


It has little to do with the unlucky Fed chairmen.


It had everything to do with the Fed Chair Phebe. The whole real estate bubble and mortgage securities fiasco was fueled by the ultra low interest rates generated by the Fed. That was the source of the whole problem.

Everything that followed that was merely a greedy, irresponsible response to a chain of events the Fed practically bribed the nation to engage in. And the same exact crap is happening today under the same influence of ultra cheap money being pumped into the economy to encourage more speculative bubbles.

Our econ leaders can no longer tell the difference between speculative bubbles and growth.
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#507219 - 02-08-10 09:25 PM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: Phebe]
loosecannon
Member


Registered: 10-30-05
Posts: 32056
Originally Posted By: Phebe
Doesn't look like any big move today, however.

Still hovering right around 10,000.

Nerves about Europe, the PIGS defaulting maybe (Portugal, Ireland/Italy/Iceland, Greece, and Spain), but it is not yet a full-blown financial system crisis.

People are worried but haven't yet marked any disaster dates on their calendars.


I think the sovereign debt issue is being far overblown. As long as the deficits are managed and the Euro stays intact I can't really see any problem whatsoever.

But if the economy does fray further, and really it seems like the press is creating this effect more than reporting it, things may erode into really ugly shape in Europe.

But I doubt it. The economy has been far worse than it is today. But that was generations ago. We are in the midst of an expectation correction more than anything else. The wealthiest nations are having their living standards corrected toward the bottom; the very goal of the globalization and market liberalization schemes that dominate the entire world's economy.

But Greece, Ireland, Spain, etc are all far better off than Mexico, Lybia, the Ukraine etc.
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#507220 - 02-08-10 09:32 PM Re: Obama's war on the economy [Re: Phebe]
loosecannon
Member


Registered: 10-30-05
Posts: 32056
Originally Posted By: Phebe

I noted with interest this morning that a commentator said that a lot of analysts "weren't buying" last Friday's unemployment figures. I said this morning I thought the government is frankly lying about those figures. As others besides me are pointing out, how do you get so many jobs newly lost ---- and yet unemployment goes DOWN?

Improbable.

They'll present "revised figures" two months from now and unemployment will have been up to 10.7, I bet.



It won't happen. The Bureau of labor stats changed the seasonal adjustment factors that they use to calculate unemployment and they changed the population total used to calculate unemployment. The effect was to shave about .4% off the unemployment figure permanently.

They may update the data and discover that more or less folks were actually laid off but there will still be a .4% reduction to the official unemployment rate (U4) indefinitely.
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